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1.8 died suddenly, no starter, fuel or sparks


41 replies to this topic

#16 mykez69

mykez69
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Derby
  • Drives:Mk2 fiesta Xr2, BMw E39 323 touring

Posted 02 August 2008 - 10:13 PM

battery lol

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Mike Smith Media

I drive a BMW, i am a T*at/i will nail your lass on my passenger seat/refuse to indicate & cut you up all the time.....but what you gona do about in your 70mph FORD haha......i jest.......a little


#17 Danny1107

Danny1107
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Worksop (north notts) area

Posted 02 August 2008 - 10:36 PM

battery lol

What works:
All the lights work, horn sounds, full beams good and strong, radio and clock ok. Battery fine as below.



#18 rs2k2008

rs2k2008
  • Drives:1.8si

Posted 03 August 2008 - 07:43 AM

cps??

#19 Oss

Oss

Posted 03 August 2008 - 05:31 PM

cps??


Erm lost me on that one.. cps?

Battery isnt that old and I can wire the starter motor up to turn - sounds great, turns engine over just fine.
Car would usually start in under 1sec of cranking, so it's in decent condition.

#20 bullsrs

bullsrs
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:sunderland
  • Drives:1.6 finesse est, astra 1.7td, still forklift truck and people round the bend

Posted 03 August 2008 - 06:28 PM

have you checked the fuses on the pos battery terminal? under black rectangular cover, bought a cat d orion a few years ago with the same symptoms and it was one of those by passed it with wire to see if everything was ok and it fired up straight away, then got another fuse from scrappy.

#21 rs2k2008

rs2k2008
  • Drives:1.8si

Posted 03 August 2008 - 08:21 PM

mean crank position sensor, sorry

#22 Squiz

Squiz
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ripley, Derbyshire.
  • Drives:00 Mk6 finesse estate, 02 Mk6 55TD van, 00 Mk6 Finesse

Posted 03 August 2008 - 10:00 PM

Im as eager as you are for your new bits to arrive to see if its cured :D
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#23 Oss

Oss

Posted 04 August 2008 - 09:45 PM

Ah gotcha :)

cps - no idea if it works or if it stops the starter motor from going, but I'd assume the fuel pump would still prime/turn regardless?
battery fuses - visually ok and 12v is present after all the fuses. I take your inference about a poor connection not being able to supply enough current and will try a bypass tomorrow (hopefully).

Squiz - I'm getting that feeling where I'm sure the parts will arrive and I will suddenly discover something daft like a connector that's come apart. Or that the PATS transceiver wire is broken somewhere behind the dash that I haven't been able to see..

Still, as long as it's giving you guys something to ponder we can't complain ;)

#24 Oss

Oss

Posted 06 August 2008 - 09:09 PM

Ok todays update...

ECU, PATS transceiver, key&barrel arrived today.

Unplugged battery and swapped the bits over - same problem; key at II, dash lights up as usual, no fuel pump priming and PATS LED goes out with no flashing/errors!

For Bullsrs I have bypassed the 3 large fuses at the battery, just in case, but no sign of change.
No sign of loose grounds either, but that remains to be investigated further...

If I don't plug in the PATS transceiver, I'm sure I get exactly the same symptoms.

Short of any flashes of inspiration, I can see no option but to strip the dashboard out and see if something has happened to the wiring.

If it means anything to anyone, the 2 thin black PATS cables that go to a connector under the dash seem to get voltage of sorts, possibly a signal wave. Can't tell with only the multimeter. I believe the other 2 black wires from the PATS unit at the steering column, may go up to the (clock) LED.

Thanks guys/girls(?) for help, encouragement and suggestions so far :)

Oss

#25 Squiz

Squiz
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ripley, Derbyshire.
  • Drives:00 Mk6 finesse estate, 02 Mk6 55TD van, 00 Mk6 Finesse

Posted 06 August 2008 - 09:27 PM

5 am this morning I had my dashboard scattered all over my path and the pavement in a vain attempt
to find out why my clock led doesnt flash at intervals while left undisturbed.
I changed all the PATS wiring thats hidden behind the dash to that which came with my new ECU and lockset and still no joy.
So I gave up and bolted it all back together knowing it works but doesnt flash :(

So Im maybe not much more help :roll:
Anyway,
if you turn to cranking position on the ignition will the motor turn over now or is it just cancelling everything and going to a "dead" state.
i.e. turning all the dash lights out and acting like no key is in the ignition ?

if all the lights stay on and the red led doesnt flash rapidly we have to look elsewhere for the damn problem.

When you say the fuel pump doesnt prime at position 2 if its not caused by the PATS then have you checked the wiring under the back seats is ok ?
Also did you pull the rubber bung out that goes through the floor in the back seat and check the wiring to the fuel sender unit is ok and not shorted ?
I also know you checked but did you try a different fuel pump cut out switch to check that hadnt developed a fault.

Damn annoying thing is I have a known good set of all these parts but not close to you :(
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#26 Oss

Oss

Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:10 PM

Evening :)
Not quite sure I'd be enthusiastic enough to get up at 5am.. saying up til then is another matter tho!
Am glad to have your input, so please keep it coming...

Onto the queries:
Cranking position - since that day, using the key has never once turned the starter. The dash stays brightly lit with no change (rather than the dimming as the starter cranks and loads the battery)
The PATS led just goes out like a errr, light at pos II

Fuel pump connection seems physically ok. Turning the key does not send power to the pump connector as far as I recall. Not retested this to confirm as yet.

Fuel pump cutoff - nope, not tried replacing it. It's just inline with one cable for the fuel pump. I would still expect the starter motor to turn without the fuel pump working (basing it on last escort fuel pump failing and everything else worked...)

If I run 12v from the fuse box, over the seats to the fuel pump terminals I can make it spin up.

Can someone confirm (if this is possible to ask) that the PATS/ECU combo will secure all 3 from being used: starter motor, edis* and the fuel pump?

* Or whatever we are calling the thing that makes the sparks, brain not engaging at the mo.

#27 Oss

Oss

Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:37 PM

Can't seem to find an edit button but nm..

Going to take a run through all the relays at next opportunity. The list of functions/labelling seems a little random but if they all work then that's 1 less likely cause.

Will be checking grounds also, but this may end up being the weekend.

#28 Squiz

Squiz
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ripley, Derbyshire.
  • Drives:00 Mk6 finesse estate, 02 Mk6 55TD van, 00 Mk6 Finesse

Posted 06 August 2008 - 11:37 PM

OK
Heres what I know from messing around with mine last week (solely to get a change of lock set :roll:
If the PATS is functioning correctly and you try to start the car with a foriegn key or try to "hotwire" the car or indeed even if you take out the ignition barrel and use a 3/8" extension to try to turn the car over/on.
You can turn to position 1 and all functions correctly.
You can turn to position 2 and all functions correctly/normally.
When you try to crank the engine (position 3) all dashboard lights will extinguish and the red led under the clock has a fit (flashes lots)
I would say if the red led now illuminates for 3 seconds then goes out at position 2 then it is functioning correctly.
If you take out the ignition barrel and try to start the car this is what we need to know.
when turned to position 3 (crank starter) do the warning lights on the clocks all go out or do they remain lit ?
If they remain lit but your starter motor doesnt crank then the fault isnt the PATS X(
this is annoying me now :roll:
If you try to hotwire the car the PATS LED should also flash repeatedly and again all warning lights should extinguish and give impression of the car not even having a key in the ignition ??
that is all correct and shows the PATS is working correctly.
I hope you get what I mean im not good at explaining but its the best i can do :D
If the PATS is working as described then have you check... damn yes you checked the fusebox before you even posted from memory :(
Do you know anyone else locally with an escort ??
someone that will let you put your parts on their car to illiminate problems ?
Including the new lock key and ECU you just got ?
You need a donor car or a known good set to attempt to find the fault.
Its hard working on descriptions to second guess a fault :(
I hope im helping in some small way I find bouncing ideas off others works but some dont work well like that :roll:
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#29 Oss

Oss

Posted 07 August 2008 - 09:53 PM

Hey Squiz :)

Afraid ran short on time tonight and it looks like the weekend will be first day I get proper chance.
I agree with what you're saying about PATS not being the problem & with the part swapping I'm inclined to think so too.
I will be rechecking fusebox relays and grounds (ECU first!) at first opportunity.

To summarise your ponderings: cranking the engine, no matter with PATS, or wrong key or right key or screwdriver in the ignition - led just goes out and nothing. :/

Dunno anyone else with an escort, certainly not that I can take a screwdriver to - but really am grateful for your posts and musings; most helpful in the dark hours.

Good news soon I hope!

#30 Squiz

Squiz
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ripley, Derbyshire.
  • Drives:00 Mk6 finesse estate, 02 Mk6 55TD van, 00 Mk6 Finesse

Posted 07 August 2008 - 10:00 PM

The PATS should stop the car even being turned over if the wrong or no key is used...

Guess you dont have a spare fuse box to try either then :(
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