Ok this seems to come up on here quite often and no really clear answers so i want to know which is best and worst and for what reasons no bullshite just facts which i cannot answer as i dont fully understand the physics of all this,

 

BUT, what i know is me and my mate have the same car same gmax shocks but he has 40 mm springs and i have 60 now i swear ours out handles his after an incident going hard into a roundabout nearly resulted in 2 reshaped cars,

 

Anyway the point is i believe rightly or wrongly that i had more grip as he backed off when i was still pushing hard, i know its not much to go on but on the 2 identical cars at the min thats all we have,

 

Also the ride isn't bad at all considering 60mm but his is a nicer ride but to me at the min thats the only benefit i see just comfort so, DISCUSS

There are more facts in your comparison than are detailed :-

 

a) Car weight

b) Tyre condition

c) Road conditions

d) Driver skill

etc etc etc..

 

It's comparing apples and oranges.. Over-cooking it into a roundabout and either understeering or lift-off oversteering is possible in any Escort if driven poorly.. it's not a measure of handling.

 

The simplistic view of facts is (in the context of a road production car) :-

 

- If you lower the car, you need to increase the spring rate due to change in the roll centres.

- An increase in spring rate/damping will typically result in less traction on a typical British road. (The lack of comfort you feel is a simple example of this - if you feel the bumps, it means the tyre is having a harder time)

- A spring and a damper are matched from the factory. If you change just the springs you will ruin the harmony between the two components which results in a harsher ride and ultimately less traction. Less traction means worse handling. Most aftermarket suspension kits are pretty poor in this department too, as often they just buy in springs from someone else and supply them re-branded with their dampers.

- When you lower an Escort the rear geometry remains the same (due to the rear suspension design - twist beam), but the front varies as it is macpherson strut. You will get an unwanted increase in negative camber and your toe angle will change due to bump steer.

 

Phrases in bold can be looked up on Google and there are many books covering the subject. Suspension design is an advanced topic which is commonly misunderstood, but I do not proclaim to be any form of expert in this field but I have been taught the factual basics which I am happy to share above.

good answer stu , like it

Thanks stu as i said im not particularly intouch with the actual facts and physics hence this thread and the search for definitive answers i willl also look up the above words in bold,

 

How would anyone sort the camber issues area six bottom arms etc?

 

Also are you saying that lowering the car any ammount is actually making the handling worse than that of the original production car?

 

Thanks for your time and input

How would anyone sort the camber issues area six bottom arms etc?

 

Also are you saying that lowering the car any ammount is actually making the handling worse than that of the original production car?

 

You can't fix camber issues with adjustable arms. It'll correct the camber at a static point in the suspension travel but the geometry will still be out of whack over OEM spec under movement.

 

Yes, lowering the car typically affects the handling in a negative way. 99% of people will argue that because a) car magazines promote lowering kits due to advertiser sales/bullshite and b) most people don't actually know what good handling is (feeling 'planted' etc., is not a measure of handling).

 

 

Just watch a rally car going over loose ground/gravel.. the chassis is very flat over the rough terrain which means the damping is working well.. screwing up geometry and fitting stiff springs won't give you that effect...

OK so what about things such as coilovers etc or are they only as good as there made out to be when used with other bits? i do in all honesty think it handles better than standard by far as when standard it used to roll all over the place and now it doesnt, i can honestly say the only car ive had with standard suspension that i consider to handle well is my st24.

OK so what about things such as coilovers etc or are they only as good as there made out to be when used with other bits? i do in all honesty think it handles better than standard by far as when standard it used to roll all over the place and now it doesnt, i can honestly say the only car ive had with standard suspension that i consider to handle well is my st24.

 

Any coilovers that aren't specifically built for an application and/or ride height will not be particularly good (unless extremely lucky). Based on the statements above, you can't have something with a 100mm variance in ride height which handles well, as only one point in it's ride height range will it be correct for a) the geometry and b) the spring rate, yet you have a constant which is the damper. It's all a mismatch, and frankly wrong. This is why race cars have different setups for different environments - obviously not practical on a road car which is why you have to go with a compromise. A decent compromise is maintaining the original ride height (and thus decent geometry under normal use) but improve the suspension with uprated dampers and MATCHED springs - something which is tricky to achieve.

 

You should not control roll with uprated springs. Just because your car rolls less does not mean its handling better. This is the basis of my comment above about people not understanding what handling is. Good handling means you can go faster around a particular piece of road. Your car may roll less, but it also has less traction (due to being lowered 60mm), so the answer is which goes around the stretch of road quicker?

Edited June 10, 201014 yr by Stu

Some of the above is true, but what people dont look into when trying to achieve 'good handling' is the centre of gravity. The vehicle coming from factory is set as an 'all round' compromise (depending on vehicle spec obv). Manufacturers spend thousands on handling characteristics and many aftermarket kits will adversly affect handling. Primarily because people dont set up the vehicle to suit. Lowering a car alters the cars camber for one.

 

camber, toe, castor, KPI, centre of gravity, lateral, pitch, rebound, bounce, are all relative areas which should be checked/considered when trying to achieve said 'good handling'. like ive stated, manufacturers have spent a lot of time and money trying to achieve a good all rounder in each of these faculties and for the car enthusiast to change at least one of these settings will effect the others.

 

loads of other factors must be considered also, unsprung weight for one. corner weighting. antiroll bar thickness etc.... along with bush condition. as upgrading one item on the car will put more strain on older components.

 

lowering a car will lower the centre of gravity, so many people assume lower the better, but not strictly true.

 

a car needs to be set up properly using laser alignment, problem is, not all areas of the above are adjustable on factory cars.

hi guys i also think with my gti been lowered 40mm with koni adjustables is far better handling than standard.

im not arguing with what stu says as i see where hes comming from.

just thought id add what i thought

cheers sean

hi guys i also think with my gti been lowered 40mm with koni adjustables is far better handling than standard.

im not arguing with what stu says as i see where hes comming from.

just thought id add what i thought

cheers sean

 

 

Ditto and although the facts are above i also think ours handles better than standard and i trust it a LOT more now.

Personal opinion is perfectly valid, however it can only be extended as far as "it feels like it's handling better" rather than "it is handling better", as you need data/times to prove the latter.

after reading all the above info am i correct in saying the best way to improve the handling of my MK6 is to get a set of good coilovers such as gaz golds or AVO's and try to keep the car at the standard ridehight

Gaz and Avo are not good quality coilovers. You'd be looking at Leda/BlackArtDesign or something more expensive like Ohlins if you were serious about it.

i would like my car to handle better but for the price of the top end stuff you can buy a much better handling car than a mk6 escort

i would like my car to handle better but for the price of the top end stuff you can buy a much better handling car than a mk6 escort

 

 

Thats true but im sure you'll agree your comment defeates the object as its a mk6 escort your trying to make handle better it all depends what you want a good handling mk6 escort or another car that handles better but how much better would the other car handle for the ammount of cash it would cost to make the escort how you want it?