Wrong engine CC on V5

[daKlone]

I'm hoping for a definitive answer rather than 'hearsay' here

 

I guy on another forum (not me, really, its not!) has just bought a car which shows a smaller engine size on the V5C than is actually fitted. He didn't fit the engine, it came like that.

 

If he insures it as the lower-capacity engine (which it is also badged as), is he a) commiting any sort of offence (either civil or criminal) or b) likely to run into trouble if he needs to make a claim?

[Squav]

I'm hoping for a definitive answer rather than 'hearsay' here

 

I guy on another forum (not me, really, its not!) has just bought a car which shows a smaller engine size on the V5C than is actually fitted. He didn't fit the engine, it came like that.

 

If he insures it as the lower-capacity engine (which it is also badged as), is he a) commiting any sort of offence (either civil or criminal) or b) likely to run into trouble if he needs to make a claim?

 

Yes, it would be insurance fraud.

[charlie74]

also the police would class his insurance as invalid and he would be open to the charge of driving uninsured,

this would depend on if they realised of course

 

the issue is that the 1.6> 1.8 engines look identical its only the internals that differ,, so it would have to be a full investigation to un earth that

[Stu]

the issue is that the 1.6> 1.8 engines look identical its only the internals that differ,, so it would have to be a full investigation to un earth that

 

You mean apart from the large "1.8" cast into the front of the block?

[daKlone]

Its not actually a Ford and there are no obvious outward signs as to the engines capacity IIRC, but obviously the engine number wouldn't match the V5 either.

 

With all due respect to Squav and Charlie74, on what basis are you making those statements? They are the sort of comment that I have heard (and even made myself) before, but when I sat down to think about what evidence I have to support them, I realised that I have yet to hear anyone cite a verifiable reference or relay personal experience (other than the usual 'my mate has got this mate who...') to back it up.

 

Of course logic would suggest that it is indeed mis-representation at the very least and that an insurance company would use such a thing to invalidate an insurance contract and not pay out (if discovered), but thats just an assumption and I'd like to get something concrete to back it up - something I can put to the guy in order to discourage him from even attempting to insure it with the wrong details. Why? Because I don't want to be hit by a driver whos insurance gets invalidated because of this sort of thing and I'm guessing neither do you guys!

[Apnea]

Why mumble and write an essay ffs?! He's done wrong tell him, no two ways about it hes broken the law. If he ran someone down, even if it wasnt his fault, Your friend will be going to prison. End of

[ScORTED]

if the car is insured as the higher capacity and in the same taxation class still then thats acceptable, for example flux's red team don't care wether you've told the dvla or not

[daKlone]

I take it from your confident reply that you are a police officer or a solicitor or a barrister or even a judge then Escape and know that for a fact?

 

Don't get me wrong, that's what I think too, but I don't *know* that this is the case.

 

Oh, and I'm sorry if writing more than three words confuses you, I'll try and be more sucinct in future.

[smithyandco]

Just reclass the car via the V5c... Tell the insurance company... Problem solved.

 

If the DVLA, VOSA or Police find out about the wrong classifcation on the V5c then it would invalidate your insurance giving the Police the power to remove the car from the road with a large fine to get it back or it's auctioned. scrapped or crushed.

 

The DVLA would have to inform the Police of their findings if they found out and the Police would take the above action.

 

VOSA have the power to remove anything from the road (in some cases, more power than the Police) and could crush the car for false classification.

 

Things like this could be found out at MOT time... VOSA get notified of a 1.8 car passing it's MOT... Yet the car in question is down as a 1.6... Alarm bells may start ringing...

[ScORTED]

tbh you'll probably never get caught, i know someone who put an RS2000 engine in a 1.3L escort and got stopped for speeding, they looked under the bonnet and knew no better (luckily it had RS1300 on the cam cover)

 

seriously though undeclared mods makes your insurance invalid at worst and at best a lengthy court battle to get any sort of part payout in the event of a claim

 

the wrong CC on the V5 doesn't really matter as long as the cars not in the wrong taxation class, however the wrong CC on your insurance docs is up Shite creak without a paddle come claim time

[daKlone]

That's a slightly different take on the issue, Phil, and not exactly one I've heard before. I would imagine that IF the problem was discovered and IF he continued to drive the car after being informed of his insurance being cancelled then I would imagine that the car could be impounded, but I doubt they would cancel it without his knowledge.

 

Scorted - theres no taxation class issue, as the swap has not changed its tax band as its pre-2001.

 

I guess there are two issues here which are getting a little mixed up - the first is what exactly the offence is (if any) and what consequences there might be and the second is the chances of actually being discovered. I don't think anything would be flagged at MoT time because AFAIK they just put the registration number into the computer and it fills in all the details - there's no part of the MoT that says "make sure the vehicle matches these details" AFAIK.

[ScORTED]

there 1% chance of the tester noticing the engines wrong, then its unlikely he'd bother to do anything about it. I have known of evil testers dobbing people in for mods though such as tints etc

 

the real issue is insurance fraud which it is as he knows the engine is the wrong size and therefore has an undisclosed modification. the insurance wouldn't have to prove he knew it would be his responsibility to prove he didn't, and its quite hard to prove you didn't know something when you really did. add to the fact it would all end in tears and refusal of insurance etc, things that follow you around for the rest of your life and a possible conviction for fraud. if you can't insure the swap don't do it. its one thing having some bits of plastic or bucket seats undisclosed another altogether changing engines / suspension brakes general go faster bits. if your sensible for a few years you can get some great deals from specialists, in fact my track cars cheaper to insure than a standard escort with a smaller engine

[daKlone]

Just to make absolutely clear; the car doesn't belong to me nor am in any way involved with the insurance - the only reason for the question is to try and get some hard facts that I can put to a guy I know on another forum to try and convince him to disclose the real engine details to his insurance company. Luckily (I think!) I'm old enough now to not have to worry too much about insurance costs.

 

Again, he bought the car like it rather than made any modifications himself. No excuse I expect, but that is the fact.

[eldarto]

This is what is on the DVLA's website.

 

"Changing your vehicle details on your registration certificate

 

You’ll need to update your registration certificate (V5C) if you make any changes to your vehicle or if any of the details shown on your registration certificate are incorrect. The amount of vehicle tax you pay may be affected and you will need to produce documentary evidence of the changes.

Changes you need to update

 

You’ll need to tell the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) about the following changes to your vehicle:

 

* colour

* engine

* cylinder capacity

* fuel type (propulsion)

* replacing or modifying the chassis/monocoque bodyshell

* seating capacity

* weight of a goods vehicle

 

Change to engine and cylinder capacity (engine size)

 

DVLA will need written evidence of any changes to engine number and cylinder capacity (cc). Written evidence can be:

 

* a receipt for the replacement engine

* written evidence from the manufacturer

* an inspection report provided for insurance purposes

* written confirmation on headed paper from a garage if the change in engine size took place before you bought the vehicle"

 

Heres the link DVLA

 

as regards to the taxation class "pre-2001 cars aren't affected" isn't true as i pay more to insure a 1.8 Escort than my dad does to insure a 1.6 Astra, both 1998 'R' Registered. It not much, only about £10-£20 a year but its still more for a bigger engine.

 

IF he decided to insure it under the smaller engine size it will automatically invalidate the insurance as the vehicle details won't be correct, giving the Police/VOSA/DVLA the power to impound and crush the car. He could deny all knowledge of the engine but i doubt anyone will fall for it and pretty sure they are wise to this sort of thing by now.

 

I have no personal experience on the matter or know of a mate of a mate, but i'm am telling you what i know.

[daKlone]

The only reason you pay a different amount to your Dad is because your car is over 1549cc and I guess his is not: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Ownin...cle/DG_10012524

 

The engine change in this case dosen't move between those two brackets.

 

I'm not trying to nit-pick, and I do appreciate everyone taking the time to reply, but all I've seen so far are opinions based on...what? A guess? A gut feeling? Something someone on another forum said? A fancy TV ad?

 

Do you see what I'm getting at? I don't necessarily disagree in thoery with what some have said, but its still without foundation really.